Ethics in San Diego?
The Electronic Recruiting Exchange is holding its ERExpo 2006 Spring Conference in San Diego, March 14-16. Great show, great presentations, great networking.
What do Heather Hamilton, Jeff Hunter, Michael Homula, Dave Lefkow, and David Gebler have in common? All are part of a Discussion Panel on March 16th entitled, Invasion of the Body Snatchers: A Look at Ethics in Recruiting. Aside from Gebler, none of them are attorneys (not that this is a requirement), Research Fellows in Ethics (very impressive), or have conducted numerous training sessions on ethics. Is a background in ethics necessary to discuss ethics? Yes and no.
No doubt all of the folks on the Ethics Panel are fine people; I can personally attest to the orange-shirted Homula as a critical thinker (those who were there at ERE Boston's post-blogger meeting at the drinking and eating establishment can attest to the fine discussion we - Homula, Steckerl, Crispin, Edge - had about recruiting ethics) and Hunter as a supreme strategic hunter and gatherer (don't know Heather and Dave well enough to add the same superlatives). But the Edge is concerned that among other shortcomings, the panel does not possess experienced ethicists who can ably handle the onslaught of questions and answers.
Let's face it, recruiting has been around as long as time. God first recruited Adam to find Eve - OK, he only recruited a rib because some cosmic friend was barking something about poaching the entire body and tortuous interference (or was it torso interference), then recruited the snake to offer an apple to Adam and Eve because some supposed cosmic force thought it better to have a third party do it. Was this all ethical?
Other fields offer ethicists who study a myriad of topics - the medical field is renowned for its centers of medical ethics (check out Boston University's Department of Health Law, Bioethics, and Human Rights - read the backgrounds of the faculty members). Let's go to business - in New York City where the ERE makes its home, Columbia University has the Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. Center for Leadership and Ethics. The Edge read the faculty bios for both schools and noticed that most possess significant experience dealing with, teaching, and writing about ethical issues in medicine and business. These folks are eminently qualified to discuss ethics in their fields. These fields really do have ethical issues to confront. Does the recruiting profession need to be lumped into the same category?
Some believe we have a big problem looming ahead: One proponent of greater regulation in recruiting pointed out that less than 3% of all recruiters belong to a national or state organization and has intimated that this is the reason why ethical breaches are rampant in our profession. Sorry but the Edge doesn't see this. The sheer numbers of recruiters out there practically ensures that some bad apples will take advantage of some unsuspecting people; the sheer number of jobseekers means that no matter how many times you tell the person that their experience as a customer service rep is not sufficient to be considered for the VP-HR spot you have. Someone is going to be mightily ticked off and will call the EEOC and BBB. There's no need to condemn the profession because of the bell curve.
How about those techniques we use to identify passive talent? Tricks to get past the gatekeeper are renowned for getting the ethics police all worked up. Are these really unethical? Is not the "goal" of recruiting to identify the best person possible for the position at the company? Sure companies don't want to lose people for whom they've invested time and money but I thought freedom of choice is highly prized in the free world. Which takes precedence? How about the way in which many agency recruiters refuse to share the name of the company with a potential employee until after they have been sufficiently vetted by the recruiter? Is this nothing more than a power ploy to protect a fee or a real ethical concern for the client?
Talent acquisition is swamped, overworked, and in some instances, underfunded (I remember reading a post from the Doyenne of Recruiting Blogging that she would try and do a better job of returning phone calls). When someone in a job search feels they have been aggrieved, the litigious gene kicks in: Complaints are made, phones are dialed, lawyers arrive at the scene, and before you know it, the New York Post picks up the story, gives it a sexy headline, and Baaaaam! someone is interviewed who condemns the entire industry. Finally, an erroneous extrapolation places our profession into the same category as…dirt. D-I-R-T, dirt. Real nice.
What the profession really needs is more education and less regulation; SHRM needs to take a more vocal role in condemning anti-recruiting regulation (first they need to increase the number of EMA chapters). Surprisingly few outplacement firms effectively teach those in transition how to work with recruiters (nothing has changed since the Edge spent four wonderful years teaching job search to executives and thousands of displaced people). Further, job descriptions need to be improved to the point where they accurately represent the real problems associated with the position and the performance standards expected (no, Lou didn't make me write this) - BTW, this is one way to take care of those nasty new OFCCP and Internet Applicant regs. More education at the community level by recruiters can help turn people into better consumers.
But to start, what the San Diego panel needs are more trained ethicists, a big-time executive search consultant, a successful contingency recruiter, and someone who sources for a living. A panel that is representative of the profession. Then it can begin to discuss ethics in recruiting and more important, to debate whether there really is a problem that requires the fat hand of regulation.
Frankly, I'm wondering why the powers that be at the ERE didn't go the extra step with this one...
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47 comments:
Torso Interference? The Adam & Eve analogy? Pure inspiration. Well done.
I agree that the long tail of the bell curve effects the reputation of the rest of us unduly.
Very good points all and worthy of further discussion from all sides. I think this an interesting panel and I'm sure we'll see more panels like this in the future.
BTW - Why don't you and Karen stop pretending and just kiss already? ;)
Ah, a Kodak moment.........
Brian-
The Edge has to state this clearly - are you ready? - nothing about ethics is he said/she said. All you have to do is show me the data that clearly demonstrates that we have an ethical dilemna in our profession.
As for you - I see the clear, clean air of the Paciific Northwest has you floating several feet off terra firma. Please come back to reality, will ya?
sds2...lol
Your concern about the panel at the ERE event is something I brought up with DM directly back at the beginning of November but I never got a response. Like you, my concern was not the people on it but the people not on it. They don't have any representation from the TPR side.
I guess it's no secret that ERE is more for Corporate Recruiters than TPRs and the whole issue about ethics started way back with one of the "experts" promoting the behaviour of a certain Corporate Recruiting team.
Why didn't they go the extra step?
Maybe they don't consider TPRs unethical or it's a closed shop to TPRs or (and more likely) they don't consider TPRs important enough to be on the panel even though we make up probably the biggest percentage of the recruiting industry.
Whatever the reason, they are missing the point and the opportunity to make it into a great session and it's a shame.
There are clear activities that are unethical for a CR to use that would not be considered unethical if used by a TPR. This will no doubt be ignored because it's of no interest to them even though it might be a key factor in companies getting over some of the ethical issues they face.
To not have anyone there from TPR is leaving out the biggest cog in the wheel and that would be a pity but perhaps not a surprise.
ERE is a great platform but it is geared for the CRs hence the subjects discussed, the "experts" used and the advice they give. (Turkey my arse!!)
Hey! Thanks for the referring link to the photo. It's always nice to know that somebody appreciates your work ;)
Tony-
You know that the Edge is a big Tony Haley fan (and antagonizer) but on this one...my sense is that it was put together rather quickly. I'm sure DM will respond or perhaps even add an unethical TPR to the mix...
My post really does speak to the people - future incarnations really should include trained business ethicists in addition to people who write a few articles or have blogs (that would also include the Edge).
Let the experts really decide if we have a problem...
For bloggers who like using interesting pictures, click over to Jordan Husney's Photoblog - good stuff there.
An unethical TPR? Now wouldn't that give some on the panel a dilemma.
It may have been put together rather quickly but they've had over 5 months to do something with it if they wanted to. My email was over 4 months ago highlighting it. (I'm not expecting a response now by the way.)
My point is not about the quality of the discussion or the existing panel but the fact that without a strong TPR presence they are unable to constructively discuss the full issues. Maybe they don't wish to.
Trained business ethicists? We have to be a bit careful here as extremes in either direction are just as bad as each other and both are potentially damaging to the industry.
I think knowing the difference between right and wrong over ego and performance is enough.
Tony, well said, as was your comment Brian re the bell curve affecting all of us..
Regarding the Professionals and some of us wanting Regulation -
Actually Steve we want SELF regulation - Not Federal Regulation -
Because we want US the Recruiting Professionals who Know what we do and the Struggles we face to Create our Own Rules and Standards - Not have some Government official who has No idea of what we do for a living to make it up for us as they go along..
Unfortunately - like in any industry that runs rampent and affects the Public, and where there is a prevelant lack of ethics or Standards, well eventually the Government steps in and helps makes the rules for us.
So do we just say hey it aint gonna happen, get p'oed at New Laws that get implemented, and whine in our brew whilst typing away in angst and fervor on our laptop at the coffee shop?
Or, do we do something about it ourselves? Take it in our own hands and say hey I want control of MY Fate, My industry!
Brian, for the Record - I have No problem with steve, he actually had been very nice in helping me out with some boolean issues about a year or so ago, we even had some very pleasant conversations.
I don't know for sure, but it seems to me that Steve sees my drive to establish standards and values in this industry as a drive to eliminate competition????
Personally I do appreciate the attention -
Somewhere along the way, The Voices for Reason and desire for Standards, ethics and values in this industry has grown tremendously, and more and more people are expressing concern as well.
So Steve, thanks very much - for the recognition.
Oh - By the way hate to burst your bubble based on medical research (somebody actually dissected cadavers and counted ribs, men and women have the same number of ribs as each other.
AT-
Giving the panel a dilemma would be a great thing - that'll get the fur flying? But I disagree with not using published business ethicists - I know a few whose views are very important to understanding the issues. Again, I don't believe we have an ethical dilemma but I'd rather see independent folks who know what they're talking about rather than people like us with rabid viewpoints.
Is there a similar ethical dilemna dicussion in the UK? How about in Canada, NZ, or in Asia?
I am not aware of ethical dilemmas in the UK but then again the employment laws are very different over here.
The UK is only just getting around to age discrimination later this year, but how will they enforce it? Anyone can reject a candidate for any reason without disclosing that reason.
Besides, with Europe it would be impossible to control. When I work on an assignment in Germany from the UK, who can possibly control my activity?
It's all down to my personal professionalism and standards. I shouldn't need someone else to tell me what is ethical and what's not and nor should anyone else. We all know what is and what isn't.
In general I don't think the industry has a serious ethical problem. Every sector in business has unethical people trying to cheat and you will always get bad apples. That can't be avoided. But for every bad apple, I do believe there are 10 good ones.
Since when did having laws stop people from committing crimes? So why think that regulation will change anything, especially if the root cause is not understood.
Great conversation.
I think the belief is that Michael will represent the TPR view. Whether you agree with that choice / decision or not is of course up to you. It seems to me that Michael has done an excellent job of giving the standard CR practices a great big zerbert. I look forward to him carrying that passion into the panel discussion.
There is a professional ethicist involved, so I am not sure I understand the Edge's objection there. Also, I once got paid $5 to not tell a lie. Does that count? But seriously, the gentleman who is moderating the session seems to be quite good, and his full time job is “business ethicist.” We have set it up so that he can provide a broader context to what may appear to be our petty and patrician disagreements.
I, for one, don't believe there is any sort of moral or ethical dilemma in the industry today. I certainly don't want any more laws or regulations. The laws on the books seem to be plenty enough. And from my point of view (I am not speaking for the other panelists or the moderator here), I think this is about the value add (or subtract) of business practices... right up to the point where a practice becomes fraudulent. What's illegal is pretty clear to me - I don't need any more legislative spoon feeding to help me further.
I am curious about what would be unethical for a CR and ethical for a TPR. I can't think of anything, but I would very much like to be enlightened.
Having attended regular calls with the other panelists and moderator to get ready for ERE I feel that a lot of the issues that have been raised here will be addressed to people's satisfaction. I could be wrong (it's happened many times before).
Finally, I think that many people are missing the main point and a huge opportunity for differentiation in the TPR community - if you can get the right candidate while increasing the value of the employment brand of your customer, then you are worth more (and therefore should be paid more) than someone who decreases the value of the brand through their practices. I would love it if someone would approach me just once without the "I'm not a crook" defensiveness and instead talk about how it's possible to get the best of both worlds - a great hire we couldn't have found or secured for ourselves using methods that increase the value of my company in future recruit's mind. That’s the conversation that should be occupying our time, not whether someone can be “poached” or not (people aren't property for goodness sake).
One man’s opinion. I do very much appreciate that our session is worthy of comment and attention. To those of you attending – I hope I don’t let you down!
Jeff, even Michael himself said the following on ERE only yesterday.
There should have been a representative from TPR. While I may be the only panelist with a strong TPR background I am not currently in that space. Perhaps future panel discussions will be more inclusive of the entire recruiting landscape.
Michael actively promotes his dislike for TPRs and how he would never use them, so to have him representing the TPRs is like having Scar representing Simba in the Lion King.
You also said.
I am curious about what would be unethical for a CR and ethical for a TPR. I can't think of anything, but I would very much like to be enlightened.
This is also precisely why the debate needs strong TPR representation for the discussion to reach it's true value.
I doubt very much anyone from the Corporate Recruiting side is going to discuss this point and the subject is far too big to discuss on a blog.
I was delighted to see that you recognise the differentiation that can be brought along by using TPRs but I think you're in the minority of CRs that can see this value.
I'm not pretending that there are not some extremely unethical, unprofessional TPRs out there. Clearly there are, but what needs to be understood is what drives them and indeed CRs to act in these ways.
That is where the root cause of unethical behaviour lies and once it's recognised, or should I say admitted, then it can be stamped out.
Regulation is about controlling fires. I think it's better to put the fire out.
The real problem is that it's not in everyones best interest to put these fires out, which is why some "experts" continue to stoke them up.
I expect the anti virus software companies prefer to warn us against the dangers of the next new virus rather than wishing to stop people actually writing them because it's good for their business to have them.
Mr. The Edge - You and I discussed this topic by phone months ago, and I know that you feel strongly about ethics in our industry. However, I will respectfully disagree with you over whether or not there is a problem in the recruiting profession.
I acknowledge that there is no quantitative data to back this up, but all of my experiences tell me that while candidates may trust the recruiters that they work with on a one-on-one basis, they view the profession as a whole as disreputable and untrustworthy. So regardless of whether slippery ethics are running rampant through the profession or it’s a select few giving the rest of us a bad name, we have a problem.
To me, the first step in addressing this problem is agreeing as a profession on which behaviors are acceptable, and which are not – as you know, this has already been the subject of much debate, both on our erexchange.com site and elsewhere. The purpose of this panel is to further that discussion.
We selected Heather, Jeff, Michael and Dave because they have all blogged publicly and taken stands on ethics in our profession, and done so with well-reasoned and often heartfelt writing. David is a professional ethicist, and his role is to give them a wider framework of ethics within which to debate and discuss, and to give the occasional reality check of an outside view.
There were certainly other ways that we could have approached the creation of the panel (there always are). As always, we will take the feedback we get from the attendees at the conference and use it to do a better job the next time around.
Oh yeah – the panel development was not rushed at all – it was put together on the same timeline as every other session at the event, many months ago.
Will you be at the show to see the panel yourself?
Tony – I apologize for not answering your email about the ethics panel and its lack of TPR representation, but I assure you that I did read it. (I get a LOT of email, and I read every message, but can’t always reply due to the volume.)
I personally consider TPRs to be a very important part of the ERE community. Approximately 27% of the registered members at our site are TPRs, and everyone who participates in the ERE discussions knows that they are an important part of the community. Take a look at most of our most frequent posters – most are TPRs. So to be clear, the erexchange.com web site is most definitely for both TPRs and corporate recruiters.
That said, the ER Expo is definitely geared towards the corporate crowd. When we first launched the event in 2001, there were a number of excellent TPR events (mostly run by associations), but none that we felt addressed corporate recruiters needs adequately.
Would I like to do events geared toward the TPRs? Absolutely. But something that I don’t think people realize about ERE (especially lately) is that we are a very small company, without any financial backing, trying to do a lot of things well. I’d love to do a TPR event, but I know that in order to do it well, we will need to devote a lot of time and money to making it happen, and those are always in short supply.
The bottom line is that you've been telling me for a long time that we need to do more for TPRs.
Doing more for TPRs – both online and at events - is on my agenda for ERE. As we grow and are able to do more and more for the profession, you will see more TPR-focused information from us, but it will take time.
Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves
For those of you who don't know - we are recruiters, that is what we do - recruit. This does not mean that we stand on the side of the road wearing a sandwich board that says "Hey! People, come work for my client." If only it were that easy. It is a daunting task that currently requires some major digging on our behalf. The majority of the highly qualified candidates are gainfully employed; most of which are not even on the recruiting radar.
How you ask, do we find these candidates? We source them. We dig. We research. We pick up the phone, find out a name and pitch them the job. Some call this "stealing their employees," we call it doing our jobs. Some call it "poaching," I call it "Welcome to the 2006 hiring market. "
My question to those calling for our heads on a platter - "How do you steal something that no one owns to begin with?" If you are taking care of your employees, then you won't have to worry about their temptation to leave. I mean, we are damn good recruiters but we don't hold a gun to anyone's head to consider a move. Also, we are not in the practice of recruiting kindergartners - as far as we know, 100% of our candidates are consenting adults and are capable of making their own decisions about their careers.
If your company is not a client, then you are a talent pool for those that are. I don't make the rules, I just play by them. Those that call sourcing unethical, I ask you to sit at my desk for just one day and you'd quickly find that it is an occupational hazard, if anything. No, it's not glamorous - but even my man Jerry Maguire had to deal with the pesky Bob Sugar. Someone will always be waiting in the wings for your guard to drop so they can steal your best (or in Jerry's case your only) player. Again, I don't make the rules - I just play the game.
To: Mr. Manaster
From: Mr. The Edge
Subj: Ethics in Recruiting
It was indeed a pleasure speaking with you a few hours ago. Looking forward to a Central Park run one of these days (perhaps even next week).
Aren't the stories of recruiters being viewed as "disreputable and untrustworthy" nothing more than apocryphal? If recruiters would spend several hours a month in local DOL job center working with job seekers, they'd see where this sentiment is coming from: These people are angry, in need, more often than not view themselves as being more skilled than people who are working, and can't understand why recruiters (a) don't return calls, (b) give them the runaround once contact is made, and (c) can't tell them why they weren't hired and others were. The anger simmers and when contacted by the media, this anger spills out into cursing recruiters and companies. Of course, recruiters can't get the hiring manager on the phone or return calls or interview candidates, etc. Nothing like a comfy bed between a rock and a hard place.
But unethical? Please.
Before the panel delves into defining appropriate behaviors, doesn't it make more sense to agree on the mission and objectives of recruiting?
Taking a stand on ethics is not the same as studying the subject from all possible angles. To this end, while the Edge knows all the recruiters on the panel, there are no monster external recruiters nor names sourcers on the dais. The greater the experiences of the panelists, the more area it can cover when discussing ethics.
While I would enjoy being at the show - you know I'd be there if I could - I do have clients to service. I'll have to monitor your blog posts instead.
Coffee upon your return?
Sure!
David,
thanks so much for your comments..
There truly is a problem in our industry, and there are more articles, blogs, and opinions expressed on the internet regarding the lack of ethical behavior of Recruiters towards Both Candidates and Clients..
Just do a Boolean search and one will find them. To say that there are Not documented statistics is also a fallacy. One just need to CALL the Better Business Bureau and they will explain their numbers to you regarding the complaints received, as will the EEOC, Bureau of Labor and the FTC.. By the way AESC also did an international research project that touched this subject very deeply
Anthony – You made some very valid points – we do need to put out the fires – the only problem is and Jeff you briefly came close to the problem within our industry is knowledge – When a recruiter has no knowledge that their actions are what causes the fires, without knowing what is legal or illegal, or without knowing or having a Standard set of Ethics within the industry then there is no way to help prevent the fires.
There are so many in this industry who have been recruiting Decades who are not aware that they the Recruiter must also be Compliant to Employment laws or Regulations – Individuals can enter this industry on a whim, and on a whim they will do as they please.
I don’t think that many people have intent to either be unethical or break the law, but unfortunately the lure of the “big bucks” and frustration of this job can create justifiable problems.
Jeff, Anthony also made another good point – Yes there is a difference in many ways between the Ethics of a TPR and a CR, there are many limitations for some CR’s based upon industry rules, union’s and other Government or Industry Self Regulation w/in a specific trade. Anther thing that TPR’s don’t have to worry about is Trade Secret Issues..
Again, this does stress – Lack of Knowledge and Information is very dangerous. To the Recruiter, to the Industry, to the Companies. And yes there are more in this industry who do agree than disagree regarding the concern of lack of ethics in this industry, that there is a problem.
I do know that Mr. Edge (I like that David) will Disagree me.. that is Inherent, I also know that my post will be nitpicked as well.. but I am compelled to post - there are problems in our industry..
Look, I don’t want to be seen as the preacher, really I don’t – but I have done enough research on this for the Past 5 years and have seen the government focus on this industry grow alarmingly at a rapid pace, especially as national Identity theft grows. C.I. is a major concern as well for them.. I have addressed and shared those concerns, and there are many who may have thought I was either paranoid or overtly cautious who are also recognizing the reasons for these concerns.
Unfortunately some of my predictions are coming through, and more is on the way.. No, I am not happy, I don’t want to be right! I want to see us maintain control of Our industry, but in an intelligent way!
So What do WE do? What do WE do before THEY do it for US? Cause people that is How Regulation does start. When there is a concern how an industry affects society and there is Not an industry standard, where individuals feel they can just do as they please because they want to.. well the gov steps in.
Thanks to the Female Part of the Edge – Maureen offering me her tickets I have the opportunity to attend the Convention, and will be at the meeting.
Ragan,
I would like to clarify something here because My words do get taken out of context regularly -
Never and I mean Never have I said that Recruiting or Sourcing is Unethical or illegal ... Now, again, Please don’t jump down on Those words – There is a difference in Recruiting and sourcing – and Predatory Recruiting and Predatory Sourcing and there are rules that prevent this action in some cases…
Straight up – read my posts, All of them – I Personally don’t like the Word Poaching as I believe it defines Predatory Recruiting – I will explain what I say by cutting and pasting something I wrote recently
In regards to Poaching and recruiting and based upon the "legal" definition and meaning of the Word – (semantics) I do NOT see the term poaching as meaning simply an innocent term or action as Recruiting a fellow competitor's employee just so that you can proffer a better opt
The definition of Poaching in Recruiting is utilized as an analogy of sourcing candidates out of competitors
But MY Personal definition and Understanding of Poaching is taken from the Legal Dictionary which I will add below – I utilize the word NOT to mean Sourcing or Recruiting Candidates – AS a Recruiter, (and a good one may I add, who as many may know only focuses on Direct Recruiting) - for goodness sake, trust me, I see nothing wrong with that – of course depending on the actions one takes to find those candidates
Again My definition is based upon the Articles that have been posted online that have Stressed Poaching Techniques to signify Predatory Recruiting/Hiring Practice - - if a company is out to Poach their competitors candidates – I see it as an action not meant with honorable intent. Poaching with the intent for predatory Hiring, to cause damage, get secret information, clients, to gain an upper hand.
And Again, I stress it IMHO that if Poaching was Simply defined as just Sourcing OR recruiting to unearth good candidates to offer them employment – THEN why not use those more Simple and innocent terminology.
Would it not be easier to eliminate confusion, vagueness and ambiguity about intent?
The Actual definition of Poaching (not referred to recruiting) defines an illegal activity - it is defined as an illegal hunting or fishing - The game or fish is out of season. The animal is on restricted land. The right to hunt this animal is claimed by somebody. The means used are illegal (for example baiting a field while hunting quail) The animal or fish is protected by law
Yes it can mean cooking fish and Eggs, but in Recruiting it aint what we are defining is it?
Karen, as you say you don’t but you do and you won’t but you will and you are but you aren’t and you can’t but you can...the Edge invites you and any others so inclined to take this simple survey. Each question requires a WRONG or RIGHT answer. Choose the one that MOST applies.
Calling into competitors and sourcing (poaching) names of employees is so WRONG RIGHT
Recruiting (poaching) out another company’s employees is
WRONG RIGHT
Predatory Recruiting is the same thing as Poaching. WRONG RIGHT
Poaching is illegal. WRONG RIGHT
Poaching is unethical. WRONG RIGHT
Poaching is illegal, Recruiting is not. WRONG RIGHT
Poaching is not an honorable activity. WRONG RIGHT
Poaching always causes damage. WRONG RIGHT
Sourcing always causes damage. WRONG RIGHT
Recruiting always causes damage. WRONG RIGHT
Poaching, with the intent to hire good employees, is WRONG RIGHT
Poaching secures secret information. WRONG RIGHT
Sourcing secures secret information. WRONG RIGHT
Recruiting secures secret information WRONG RIGHT
Gaining an upper hand in business is WRONG RIGHT
Gaining clients or customers by poaching is WRONG RIGHT
The end result of poaching is that an employee is never offered another opportunity. WRONG RIGHT
Big business doesn’t like to have their employees “poached away”. WRONG RIGHT
Poaching is an activity that gives an advantage to "the little guy".
WRONG RIGHT
Honorable intent is a sword that can cut both ways. WRONG RIGHT
Oh, ye'll tak the high road, and I'll tak the low road,
And I'll be in Scotland afore ye;
Semantics Steve – BY THE WAY I NEVER said recruiting or sourcing was illegal.. just the how in SOME cases!!!! I can lead you to a post that I made that Proves that from over 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 Years ago.. Oh did I mention that I was quoted as well on ERN http://www.interbiznet.com/ern/archives/050825.html to back up what I have been saying FOREVER – but somehow people keep twisting my words..
Semantics - What do YOU mean by Poaching.. What do I mean by Poaching
You tell me your Definition, and I have told You Mine.
Let's take some excerpts from 3 articles written last year describing Poaching and then You dear reader determine for yourself if Poaching was meant to signify simple SOURCING or Predatory hiring
Hire top talent from a competitor whenever you can get them. Hire them as a "corporate resource" and get them on board, even if you don't have a current opening for them.
No longer can recruiters avoid making use of such tools and approaches on the grounds that they violate the organizations culture or ethics.
Competitive advantage. It exhibits its awareness of what the competitors are doing by proactively "attacking" a competitor's workforce whenever that company has a disruptive event such as a merger or layoff.
Recruiting an entire team. The talent acquisition team set as a goal to "get them all" at a competitor's branch. With some cold calling, referrals, and relationship building, they managed to recruit an entire teller team away within a two-week period.
Recruiting on their turf. Some members of the recruiting team wandered through a competitor's offsite seminar wearing the competitor's lapel buttons. In addition to a goal of getting a hire (they succeeded), the primary goal was also to build morale and energize the recruiting team ( My words - Problem here, were they also privvy to confidential information.. not to mention they were not honest about who they were.).
No longer can recruiters avoid making use of such tools and approaches on the grounds that they violate the organizations culture or ethics.
So based upon certain practices advertised on the net to define poaching I don't think that Poaching is meant to be Simply Recruiting and Sourcing.
Again as I said If it was why NOT just use those terms..
This can drag on for hours, and we know where you stand Steve, but somehow, it seems people keep misunderstanding my viewpoint..
So I wanted to make sure I clarified.
I DO think Direct Recruiting and Sourcing is Ethical and Legal depending of Course on How it is done.
I am AGAINST Government Regulation
I do think that Anti Competitive Behavior, and Predatory Hiring/Recruiting can be illegal and unethical.
The beauty of being the Edge is that readers never know whether the writer is full of estrogen or testosterone. Heh-heh...
What you have said, Karen, many, many times, is that poaching is illegal. Just two days ago, over on the Yahoo group, Sourcers Unleashed, you declared, “Regarding if it
(poaching) is unethical - well it is illegal in some states".
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/sourcers_unleashed/message/2200
As one half of the Edge reminded you yesterday, it is not clear that you have said it’s unethical, but, your excoriating feelings on the subject come through loud and clear.
The same half of the Edge scolded, “Poaching IS NOT predatory hiring. It IS NOT illegal. It is NOT unethical. It CAN BE both of these things if it is used with the intention to annihilate a competitor leading to a lessening of competition. But in the usual context of what we do, it is not, and the practice does not deserve to be so scurrilously maligned.”
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/sourcers_unleashed/message/2202
For your edification, the Edge’s responses to the Survey are as follows:
Calling into competitors and sourcing (poaching) names of employees is so RIGHT
Recruiting (poaching) out another company’s employees is RIGHT
Predatory Recruiting is the same thing as Poaching. WRONG
Poaching is illegal. WRONG
Poaching is unethical. WRONG
“Poaching is illegal, Recruiting is not.” something you said on ERE on 9/30/2005 at 11:17 a.m WRONG
Poaching is not an honorable activity. WRONG
Poaching always causes damage. WRONG
Sourcing always causes damage. WRONG
Recruiting always causes damage. WRONG
Poaching, with the intent to hire good employees, is RIGHT
Poaching secures secret information. WRONG
Sourcing secures secret information. WRONG
Recruiting secures secret information. WRONG
Gaining an upper hand in business is RIGHT
Gaining clients or customers by poaching is RIGHT
The end result of poaching is that an employee is never offered another opportunity. WRONG
Big business doesn’t like to have their employees “poached away”. RIGHT
Poaching is an activity that gives an advantage to "the little guy". RIGHT
Honorable intent is a sword that can cut both ways. RIGHT
Allow the Edge to repeat...
Calling into competitors and sourcing (poaching) names of employees is so RIGHT as is
recruiting (poaching) out another company’s employees
Just take the dang survey, Karen. Let's "simplify", as you suggest.
"There are three sides to every story. My side, your side, and the Edge’s.” ~ The Edge
David, in between all this edgy excitement on poaching, I would like to return a slight apology regarding the date I sent my email.
I sent it on the 1/11 meaning 11th January rather than the 1st November. Sorry for my Englishness.
I appreciate your response and I look forward to seeing more for the TPRs on ERE in the future.
Personally I believe that TPRs are a valuable resource for CRs to use rather than try to cut out as some do.
Why would we need to be lawyers to talk about ethics?
Wouldn't that be like a panel of stalkers talking about personal privacy?
Dave-
Edge never said that being a lawyer was a requirement ("not that this is a requirement"). But have you seen the Discovery Channel show It Takes a Thief about former thiefs talking about home security? These people have really studied being thiefs.
Now I'll ask you - do you believe their is an ethical problem with how recruiters recruit, what do you believe is the extent of the problem, and do you have any data to support this?
to answer your questions:
1. sometimes
2. likely very low - but that doesn't mean it's not a big problem, as it gives the rest of the recruiters out there a bad name and makes it more difficult to do their jobs the right way. when baseball players take steroids and put up gaudy #'s, for instance, it just puts pressure on others to cheat too.
3. haven't seen any stats (not sure they exist to be honest - not many will admit to behavior that could be perceived as unethical), but i've seen it in action. i actually worked for a TPR in the mid-90's, and saw salespeople talking to people under false pretenses, baiting and switching job seekers and using shady sales tactics to convince someone to change jobs (not that this is the exclusive province of TPR's).
looking forward to the discussion.
Steve,
you do drag it on don't you - wow !!
Again misquoted, again my words are twisted.. Why I am responding.
Yes based upon MY interpretation of what Poaching Means, I do think it is Unethical, and Yes it CAN also be Illegal..
And no I cannot take your survey as I don't like interpreting other peoples meanings.. In other words I don't know what Your interpretation of Poaching is..
Also you Always is Such a definitve word, if you were to maybe use the Word Can or May, then MAYBE I would consider it. But then again Maybe Not, as again my words may get misinterpreted.
Yes it is in black and white, what I wrote on Maureens blog I also cut and Pasted here..
I stand by what I say. There is No black and white.. and there sure is a lot of Grey matter here.
Sometimes?
Every profession has its bottom feeders. Right or wrong, when a party feels aggrieved they're probably going to complain or sue. And these days, a few sheckles to a silence a complainer is cheaper than a full blown court case. Naturally, guilt is assumed. But doesn't the market have a funny way of exposing the weak players and ultimately putting them out of biz?
As far as data, Edge has been through this before - with details - but will go back and pull out the Better Business Bureau spreadsheet of cases and jot down the real numbers that show that as a profession we're not bottom feeders, carcass chasers, or worse.
Sometimes?
Every profession has its bottom feeders. Right or wrong, when a party feels aggrieved they're probably going to complain or sue. And these days, a few sheckles to a silence a complainer is cheaper than a full blown court case. Naturally, guilt is assumed. But doesn't the market have a funny way of exposing the weak players and ultimately putting them out of biz?
As far as data, Edge has been through this before - with details - but will go back and pull out the Better Business Bureau spreadsheet of cases and jot down the real numbers that show that as a profession we're not bottom feeders, carcass chasers, or worse.
A few quicke commments.
Mr. Edge - can't wait to connect with you again. I so enjoy your new blogging enterprise. I am sorry I have not been more actively engaged but getting this gig off the ground at QL is taking up tons of my time. Not enough time for frivolous blogging, pints of Guiness and our usual lovely chats. I will call - promise. Sounds like your last date doesn't it?
Tony - I am growing more and more puzzled at how often we are starting to agree. Is the apocalypse imminent? There should have been a TPR representative on this panel and, as you pointed out, I have stated so publicly on ERE. Again, while I feel I can represent the TPR perspective well, I am not currently in that space. I will take an opportunity to challenge one thing you said. I have not, contrary to your statement, I do not promote my dislike for TPR's. I am one at the very core of my existence. What I do promote is CR taking more responsibility and getting off of their paper and process train and actually doing real recruiting. I just don't believe that TPR is the answer to all the challenges of corporate hiring. I believe, with every ounce of my being, that HR type recruiters are the reason why corporate recruiting has a black eye and is so inept. I simply contend that you can create a TPR mentality and approach inside of a corporation and, in most cases, improve efficiency, increase quality of hire and save money. That is just good business. There are times when you have to use a TPR and, if that time comes, I will be the firs to use them myself.
I don't personally believe we have a HUGE ethical problem in the recruiting profession. While I have engaged in some grey area practices, and I have done one or two things I wish I could have back, I don't condone or engage in illegal or unethical practices in my role as Director of Talent Acquisition with Quicken Loans. Recruiting in 2006 and beyond will require an intensely aggressive and innovative approach that MOST in CR are not equipped for. If doing those things are deemed unethical in some people's eyes so be it. I will continue to do what I do, coach my TAC's properly and get the results Quicken Loans pays me and my TAC's (who are paid commissions like TPR by the way)to get.
Ethical problems in recruiting - I don't see it!
See you all in San Diego!
You're going to grace the Edge with the honor of a phone call? Well clutch the pearls...
You watch - one day you and Tony will be sitting on the same side of a recruiting panel, both wearing orange shirts.
A while back, the Edge found some, what sounds like to the Edge, very good advice regarding the activity we’re all yammering about in here –poaching. It read:
“Any employee is not entitled to use or disclose the former employer's trade secrets, and the new employer is not entitled to use the employee as a conduit to gain the benefit of the former employer's secrets.”
In other words:
DO NOT hire a competitor’s employees if your intention is to put the competitor out of business.
DO hire a competitor’s employees if your intention is to gain good employees.
And THAT, gentle reader, is about as good a definition regarding poaching as you can get. But, if you need more, allow the Edge to write a definition for poaching as it applies in the recruiting industry, and forever put this matter to rest.
Poaching – the activity that procures employees for one employer from another.
Poaching is NOT illegal or unethical if it is performed with the intention to gain good employees.
Poaching IS illegal when it is performed with the intention to destroy competition.
Ethics is a subjective experience, modified by individual bias. Think “Three Blind Men And The Elephant”: http://www.noogenesis.com/pineapple/blind_men_elephant.html
holy crap this convo is about as bad as when i stirred the pot before boston .... remember that one maureen? i know steve does, lol .... then when lou & john started going at it .... etc blah blah .... gotta love drama !! :-)
~jer
Wow. I go off the grid to the wilds of Penn for a few days and look what happens. I'm glad I didn't log on or I never would've relaxed by the pool...
Mr. Edge - Though on the inside now, I've been a TPR for 99.9% of my career and agree with you the same percentage of the time. I have to say though it does seem like a lot of the stuff you've been picking on Karen M about is semantics.
I don't believe we have an ethics problem in the industry. I do think that a small percentage of behavior paints the rest unfairly.
I do believe in eductation of the massess. What could be wrong with that? There are many activities that can border illegality (actively targeting a group at a competitor.)
I think CR's are good when the situation is structured for their success. Many companies ask the CR's to do too much other than recruit. When you have someone at the top who understands that (take Mr Homula for instance) or the team at Microsoft, and you get a group that combines the best of both worlds.
Stop calling it poaching, call it passive candidate recruiting. Poaching has negative connoations that only muddle the discussion.
Wish I could be at San Diego but I'll be in Redmond straight out. Sounds like a barn burner.
PS - Kiss her already edge...
Michael, you choose your words very carefully :-)
I guess it's not worth requoting previous TPR comments in the name of moving forward but it is worrying that you have now agreed with something I said on three occassions. You must be mellowing.
Steve, same side of the recruiting panel is unlikely but wearing an Orange shirt?
Come on. I'm a die hard White shirt, dark suit, dry handshake person I'm afraid.
I keep the bright colours for supporting my Football team. English football that is ;-)
Brian,
I wish you were coming to the convention cause I could REALLY hug you right now... Yes it is Semantics.
Steve, one thing that is intersting, first you Muddle my words and Now Use them to define Your Point..
Which I may add is Pretty Much What I have been Saying All along - for the Past 5 Years... (at least I am consistent)
Maybe I Am gaining Credibility in your eyes?
Brian-
Please go to SD and hug her, ok?
Michael-
Frivolous blogging? It's the dialogue, stupid.
Tony-
You've described yourself as a blue blood. Are you kidding?
Karen-
I'd pay to see that hug.
Trained by and brought up in the IBM way I'm afraid.
David,
I do have a question to pose to you, - why wasn't there any legal experts on the Panel?
Obviously there is a lot of misinformation and confusion as to what is real and what is Not..
What is legal, and what is Not, and what is Ethical and what isn't.
I've posted on your website for some time and know that there are many who Run or get angry about the Legal Conversations.. and maybe for the wrong reasons.
So isn't it time to Identify and let the Public be aware of the Legal issues that REALLY do exist and Face our industry? Especially from a REAL legal expert...
Trust Me I am no expert at the law, I just try to stay informed about the issues that can affect how I run my business...
And I have no problem sharing my limited knowledge... As many of you are aware.
Regarding lack of ethics in this industry - it is interesting that many of the Present and Former TPR's say Yes we have some concerns, so taking that in account, maybe there really should have been someone from that side of the Fence to help identify those ethical issues that WE face in the TPR world..
My 2 Cents and you could possibly buy the empire state building with how many 2 Cents I have
Karen -
In my experience, what is legal is sometimes not the same as what is ethical. A legal expert would be a cool addition to the show (and we've had them in the past), but I don't know if this particular panel is the right fit.
Thanks David for your response -
Yes it is true that what is ethical does not always equate to legal
But at the same time, what is deemed as Unethical can create legality..
FYI - I would like to clarify on one more thing..
My desire in this industry is to Prevent Government Regulation - to find a way to provide education for our industry so that we may take away from the focus.
It is easy to have opinions, we all do, but we quit Whining about what we don't like, or don't want to see happen AND Do something about it.
Conviction Is a Luxury from the Sidelines....
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Thanks.
Sam D. Mann
http://www.urfortuneshere.com
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